Kelpie

Australian Kelpie

Quick Facts

🐕 Breed Group
Herding
📏 Size Category
Medium
📏 Height
Males: 18-20 inches (46-51 cm), Females: 17-19 inches (43-48 cm)
⚖️ Weight
Males: 31-45 pounds (14-20 kg), Females: 25-38 pounds (11-17 kg)
⏱️ Life Expectancy
10-14 years
🧣 Coat Type
Short, double coat with dense undercoat
🎨 Coat Colors
Black, chocolate, red, fawn, black and tan, red and tan
😀 Temperament
Intelligent, energetic, loyal, alert, eager
🏃 Exercise Needs
Very High
🎓 Training Difficulty
Excellent
👶 Good with Children
Good with supervision
🐾 Good with Other Pets
Moderate - may herd other animals

Other Names & Breed Recognition

Kelpie is the name that rolls off the tongue of every Australian stockman, hobby farmer, and dog sport enthusiast who has ever watched one of these dogs work. It is far and away the most common way people refer to the Australian Kelpie in everyday conversation, and in many parts of Australia you would get a funny look for using the breed's full registered name at all. The word itself traces back to Celtic mythology, where a kelpie was a shapeshifting water spirit said to inhabit Scottish lochs and rivers. The breed inherited the name from a particularly influential black and tan female purchased by Jack Gleeson around 1872, a dog he reportedly named after the mythological creature. Her descendants dominated early Australian sheepdog trials, and the name stuck to the entire strain.

The shortened form Kelpie functions as both a casual nickname and a practical identifier in a country where the breed is deeply embedded in rural culture. Australian farmers rarely bother with the full designation because context makes it unnecessary. If someone on a sheep station says they need a good Kelpie, everyone within earshot knows exactly what they mean. This kind of linguistic shortcut reflects genuine cultural ownership of the breed rather than mere laziness with syllables. The Kelpie is to Australian agriculture what the Border Collie is to British sheep farming, and the abbreviated name carries all of that weight and history within two syllables.

Beyond the primary nickname, the breed carries a few other designations worth knowing. Show Kelpie and Working Kelpie describe the two distinct strains that developed as the breed diverged into conformation and performance lines. The Australian National Kennel Council registers Show Kelpies, while the Working Kelpie Council of Australia maintains a separate registry focused exclusively on herding ability. Some older references mention Barb Kelpies, referring to solid black dogs named after an early influential sire called Barb. That strain designation has faded from common use, though some stockmen still call any solid black Kelpie a Barb out of tradition.

The breed holds recognition from the major international registries under its full Australian Kelpie name. The FCI classifies it in Group 1, Section 1, among the sheepdogs. The United Kennel Club recognizes the breed in its Herding Dog Group and has done so since the early 1990s. The AKC granted full Herding Group recognition in 2015 after years in the Foundation Stock Service. In Australia, the ANKC recognizes the breed in its Working Dog Group. Despite all these formal designations, Kelpie remains the name people actually use, and it carries a warmth and familiarity that the official paperwork simply cannot replicate.

Kelpie Organizations & Standards

The organizational landscape surrounding Kelpies is unusual in that two parallel systems exist in Australia, each with fundamentally different priorities. The Australian National Kennel Council publishes conformation standards for what most people call the Show Kelpie or Bench Kelpie, a dog selected primarily for physical appearance and ring presence. The Working Kelpie Council of Australia, established in 1989, maintains a completely separate registry where breeding decisions center on herding performance and field temperament. Dogs registered with one body cannot be dual-registered with the other, which tells you everything about how seriously each side takes its particular vision of what a Kelpie should be.

The ANKC standard describes a medium-sized dog that is lithe, muscular, and built for tireless work. It specifies acceptable coat colors including black, chocolate, red, blue, fawn, cream, and various tan-pointed combinations. The standard calls for a slightly rectangular body with a ratio of approximately ten to nine, a wedge-shaped head with pricked ears, and almond-shaped eyes that convey intelligence. Movement should be smooth, free, and effortless, with the ability to change direction instantly at speed. The emphasis on correct structure reflects the understanding that a Kelpie with poor conformation cannot sustain the physical demands of a working career.

Internationally, the FCI standard aligns closely with ANKC guidelines and governs competition across Europe and affiliated countries. It stresses eagerness, energy, and alertness as essential breed characteristics, noting that a Kelpie lacking these mental qualities fails the standard regardless of how pretty it looks standing still. The UKC standard takes a similar approach but places additional emphasis on working heritage and practical temperament. UKC events allow Kelpies to compete in both conformation and herding trials, which appeals to breeders who believe a complete Kelpie should be able to do both. The AKC adopted its Herding Group standard in 2015, drawing from Australian source material while adapting to American competition conventions.

All breed standards share common ground on the traits that define the Kelpie. Every organization describes a dog with a wedge-shaped head, erect ears, and an expression that communicates readiness and focus. The desired temperament is universally characterized as keen, willing, tractable, and naturally inclined toward herding work. Standards explicitly warn against excessive shyness or aggression, expecting instead a dog confident enough to work independently while still responsive to its handler. The Working Kelpie Council goes further than any kennel club standard by requiring progeny to pass practical herding assessments before receiving full registration, an approach that keeps working instinct at the center of breeding decisions rather than leaving it as an afterthought.

Kennel Club Recognition

  • American Kennel Club (AKC): Recognized in 2015, Herding Group
  • United Kennel Club (UKC): Recognized, Herding Dog Group
  • FCI: Recognized, Group 1

Kelpie Physical Description

Standing in front of a Kelpie for the first time, what strikes you is how everything about this dog looks purposeful. There is no wasted material anywhere on the frame. Males typically stand 18 to 20 inches at the shoulder and females 17 to 19 inches, with weight ranging from about 25 to 45 pounds depending on sex and whether the dog comes from show or working lines. Working Kelpies tend to run leaner and sometimes a bit taller than their show counterparts, since nobody on a sheep station cares about ring proportions as long as the dog can cover ground all day without breaking down.

The head is clean and wedge-shaped, tapering from a slightly rounded skull toward a muzzle of roughly equal length. There is a definite stop but nothing exaggerated. The nose matches the coat color, ranging from black to liver brown depending on the individual. Eyes sit obliquely in the skull, medium-sized and almond-shaped, projecting the focused intensity that Kelpie people call the eye. This penetrating gaze is not merely cosmetic. It is the same fixed stare the dog uses to control livestock, and even pet Kelpies will occasionally pin you with it when they want something badly enough. Eye color runs from dark brown to amber, with lighter shades acceptable in chocolate or fawn dogs.

The ears are pricked, moderately pointed, and set wide apart on the head. They rotate independently to track sounds, which is fascinating to watch when the dog is working in a noisy yard full of bleating sheep. The neck is moderately long and slightly arched, blending smoothly into well-angulated shoulders that give the front assembly excellent reach during movement. The chest is deep rather than wide, providing lung capacity without the broad front that would slow the dog when threading between tightly packed livestock.

Through the body, the Kelpie is slightly longer than tall, with a level topline and strong, muscular loin. The ribs are well-sprung without being barrel-shaped, and the tuck-up is moderate. The hindquarters are where the real engine lives. Broad, muscular thighs connect through well-bent stifles to low-set hocks that generate the explosive drive you see when a Kelpie launches across a paddock or springs onto the backs of sheep in a packed yard. That back-running behavior, where the dog literally runs across the tops of sheep to reach the far side of a mob, is unique to the breed and demands exceptional balance and rear-end power.

The coat is short, flat, and weather-resistant, with a dense undercoat that provides insulation in both heat and cold. Hair is longer behind the legs and around the neck where it may form a slight ruff, shorter on the head, ears, and front of the legs. Working Kelpies can carry slightly rougher or longer coats than show dogs, since nobody trims them for competition. The color range includes solid black, red, chocolate, fawn, blue, and cream, along with tan-pointed versions of most of these. Some dogs carry a small white blaze on the chest, which is acceptable without being preferred.

Movement is the ultimate test of correct Kelpie structure, and it should look effortless even at high speed. The gait is smooth and ground-covering, with a tendency to single-track as speed increases. The dog should move with obvious reach in front and strong drive from behind, maintaining a level topline without bouncing or rolling. What really separates a well-built Kelpie from a pretty one is the ability to drop instantly from a gallop into a crouch and then explode in a new direction. That sudden change of speed and angle is how the dog controls livestock, and no amount of grooming can fake the structural soundness required to perform it thousands of times across a working career.

Affectionate With Family
Kelpies bond deeply with their people and show genuine devotion, though they express it through partnership and presence rather than constant physical affection.
Good With Young Children
They can do well with older children who understand boundaries, but their herding instinct may lead them to nip at the heels of small kids who run and squeal.
Good With Other Dogs
Generally sociable with other dogs when raised together, though some Kelpies may attempt to herd or manage canine housemates.
Shedding Level
Moderate shedding throughout the year with heavier seasonal blows in spring and fall when the dense undercoat releases in clumps.
Coat Grooming Frequency
The short double coat stays relatively clean on its own and only needs a weekly brushing to remove loose hair and distribute skin oils.
Drooling Level
Kelpies are a very clean-mouthed breed with virtually no drooling tendency under normal circumstances.
Coat Type
A weather-resistant double coat with a straight, hard outer layer lying flat against the body and a shorter, dense undercoat for insulation.
Openness To Strangers
Most Kelpies are somewhat reserved with new people rather than openly friendly, taking a moment to size up strangers before warming up.
Playfulness Level
Highly playful and always ready for a game, especially activities that involve chasing, retrieving, or any kind of structured physical challenge.
Watchdog/Protective Nature
Alert and naturally vigilant, Kelpies will readily announce visitors and unusual activity without tending toward aggression or excessive guarding.
Adaptability Level
Kelpies struggle in sedentary or confined living situations and genuinely need space, work, or intensive daily exercise to remain mentally stable.
Trainability Level
Exceptionally responsive to training with an eagerness to learn that borders on obsessive, making them one of the most trainable herding breeds in existence.

Kelpie History & Development

The name Kelpie entered the Australian dog world through a single, specific animal. Around 1872, a young man named Jack Gleeson acquired a black and tan female pup from a litter born at Warrock Station near Casterton in Victoria. He named her Kelpie after the shapeshifting water spirit of Celtic mythology, a choice that may have seemed whimsical at the time but would eventually become synonymous with an entire breed. Gleeson's Kelpie proved to be an outstanding worker, and when her daughter, known as King's Kelpie, tied for first place at the prestigious Forbes Trial in 1879, stockmen across the country began asking for pups from the Kelpie strain. Within a decade, any working sheepdog of that type was simply called a Kelpie regardless of its actual pedigree.

The dogs behind the name descended from British working collies imported to Australia during the mid-1800s to manage the rapidly expanding sheep industry. These were not the refined breeds we know today as Border Collies or Rough Collies, but rather a loosely defined group of smooth-coated, prick-eared herding dogs from Scotland's Rutherford and North Country strains. The critical thing to understand is that the Kelpie breed was established ten to fifteen years before the Border Collie was formally recognized, so claims that Kelpies descend from Border Collies get the timeline backwards. Both breeds share common ancestry in those early British working collies, but they developed along separate paths on different continents.

The question of dingo blood has followed the Kelpie since the breed's earliest days. A popular story claiming deliberate collie-dingo crosses around 1870 circulated widely for over a century. In 2019, a University of Sydney genomic study was initially reported as disproving dingo ancestry entirely, but lead researcher Professor Claire Wade later clarified that her team had only examined genes linked to visible traits like ear shape and coat color, not the full genome. The honest answer is that some dingo influence almost certainly entered the gene pool at various points through both accidental and deliberate crossings, but how much and how early remains genuinely uncertain.

As the name Kelpie became universal shorthand for these Australian sheepdogs, the breed's reputation grew alongside Australia's wool industry. Stockmen valued the dogs for their ability to work vast acreage in extreme heat, covering thirty or more miles in a single day while managing mobs of several thousand head. The Kelpie's willingness to run across the backs of tightly packed sheep to reach the far side of a yard became the breed's signature move and a point of national pride. By the early 1900s, Robert Kaleski published the first breed standard, which was adopted by the Kennel Club of New South Wales. However, most working stockmen rejected standardization efforts, fearing that breeding for appearance would destroy the working ability that made the Kelpie valuable in the first place.

That tension between working and show priorities eventually produced two distinct populations under the same name. The Working Kelpie Council was established in 1989 to preserve performance breeding, while the ANKC continued registering conformation dogs. The abbreviated name Kelpie bridges both worlds. Whether the dog is winning yard trials on a dusty station or stacking up ribbons at a capital city show, everyone calls it a Kelpie. The name has traveled well beyond Australia too, with working populations established across North America, Europe, and parts of Asia. International recognition followed, with UKC acceptance in the early 1990s and AKC recognition in 2015. Through all of this expansion, the two-syllable name that started with one black and tan pup in Victoria remains the universal shorthand for a breed that helped build a nation's agricultural identity.

Kelpie Temperament & Personality

Living with a Kelpie is like living with a coworker who never clocks out. These dogs were bred to solve problems independently across huge stretches of remote country, and that heritage produces a mind that is always running, always scanning for something to manage or figure out. The intelligence here is not the eager-to-please variety you see in a Labrador. It is more operational and self-directed. A Kelpie that has been given a job understands the goal and will make real-time decisions about how to achieve it without waiting for instructions at every step. That kind of independent problem-solving is thrilling when it is channeled into work or sport, but it becomes genuinely difficult when the dog has nothing productive to do and starts inventing its own projects.

The bond a Kelpie forms with its primary handler tends to be intense and centered on cooperation rather than pure affection. These dogs respect competence above all else. If you are clear, consistent, and give them meaningful work, they will give you everything they have. If you are vague, inconsistent, or try to manage them through force, they will lose respect for your leadership and start making their own decisions about household management. That might sound anthropomorphic, but anyone who has lived with a Kelpie that decided the family cat needed herding into the laundry room every evening will tell you the decision-making is very real.

With family, Kelpies are loyal and genuinely affectionate, though they tend to express attachment through proximity and attentiveness rather than crawling into your lap. They want to be where you are and know what you are doing, but they are not typically clingy or needy about it. Many Kelpie owners describe a dog that follows them from room to room, settles nearby while they work, and springs to full alert the moment anything suggests an activity might be starting. This watchfulness extends to their guarding instincts. Kelpies are naturally alert and will announce visitors or unusual sounds without hesitation, though true aggression is not characteristic of the breed and should not be encouraged.

The herding instinct runs deep enough to surface in virtually every pet Kelpie, regardless of whether the dog has ever seen a sheep. Children running in the yard, bicycles passing the house, other dogs playing at the park, and even traffic can trigger the chase-and-control response that was selectively bred into these dogs over a century of working development. This is not something you train out completely. You manage it through redirection, structure, and making sure the dog has appropriate outlets. Nipping at heels is a specific herding behavior that served the breed well on livestock but creates obvious problems with children and houseguests.

The flip side of all that drive is what happens when a Kelpie's needs go unmet. A bored, underexercised Kelpie does not simply mope around the house looking sad. It systematically disassembles things, digs craters in the yard, barks compulsively, or develops obsessive behaviors like shadow chasing or light fixation. These are stress responses from a brain that was designed to process enormous amounts of sensory information during a working day and has nothing to process instead. The cooperation lens works powerfully with Kelpies because the breed genuinely wants to work with you. When you provide structure, purpose, and adequate physical and mental exercise, the stress dissolves and you get the calm, focused, brilliant companion these dogs are capable of being. The answer is almost never more discipline. It is almost always more partnership.

Kelpie Family Life & Living Requirements

Bringing a Kelpie into a family home works beautifully when everyone understands what the dog actually needs, and it goes sideways fast when people fall in love with the breed's intelligence and good looks without accounting for the engine underneath. These are not apartment dogs. They are not even suburban dogs in the traditional sense unless you are genuinely committed to providing intensive daily exercise and mental stimulation that goes well beyond a walk around the block. A Kelpie that gets two hours of vigorous activity plus training or puzzle work can settle nicely in a house with a yard. A Kelpie that gets a twenty-minute stroll and some kibble will make your life very difficult.

With children, the relationship depends heavily on the age of the kids and how well the family manages the herding instinct. Kelpies raised alongside older children who know how to interact with dogs respectfully can form wonderful partnerships. These dogs are patient, playful, and genuinely enjoy the energy that kids bring. The issue arises with toddlers and young children who run, shriek, and move unpredictably, which triggers every herding impulse the Kelpie carries. Heel-nipping and circling behavior around small children is not aggression. It is the dog doing exactly what it was bred to do, just applying it to the wrong species. Supervision and consistent redirection are non-negotiable during the years when children are too young to understand the dog's boundaries.

Other pets present a similar situation. Kelpies raised with cats from puppyhood can learn to coexist peacefully, though the cat may occasionally find itself being stared at with uncomfortable intensity. Dogs that enter homes with established cats or small animals later in life may have a harder time resisting the chase-and-control response. Other dogs in the household usually fare well, especially if the Kelpie has been properly socialized. Some Kelpies develop a tendency to manage other dogs during play, which can annoy more independent breeds, but outright aggression toward other dogs is not a breed characteristic.

The ideal Kelpie household includes people who enjoy being active and want a dog that participates in their lifestyle rather than simply observing it. Hikers, runners, agility competitors, herding trial enthusiasts, and active farm families all find Kelpies to be outstanding companions. Homes where the dog will spend long hours alone while everyone works and the kids attend school are a poor match unless someone can provide a midday exercise break or the dog has a genuine job to perform. Kelpies left alone for extended periods do not handle isolation well, and the resulting behavioral problems are a reflection of unmet needs rather than a flaw in the dog's character.

Kelpie Training & Exercise Needs

Training a Kelpie is one of the most rewarding experiences in the dog world because you are working with a mind that genuinely wants to learn and has the capacity to absorb complex sequences quickly. These dogs routinely excel in obedience, agility, rally, herding trials, and virtually any structured activity you point them at. The key to successful training is understanding that Kelpies respond to clarity and purpose, not repetition. Drilling the same exercise over and over bores them, and a bored Kelpie starts freelancing. Short, varied sessions that introduce new challenges keep the dog engaged and progressing. Positive reinforcement works extremely well because the breed is inherently motivated by cooperation with a handler they respect.

Early socialization matters enormously with Kelpies. The breed's natural reserve around strangers and tendency toward environmental sensitivity mean that puppies need broad, positive exposure to different people, animals, sounds, and situations during the critical developmental window. A Kelpie that misses this socialization period can become reactive or overly cautious in new situations, which creates problems for a dog that already has enough energy to power a small generator. Puppy classes, controlled outings to various environments, and positive introductions to a wide range of people and animals build the confidence foundation that supports everything else.

Exercise requirements for Kelpies are legitimately high, and this is not something you can fudge. Plan on a minimum of 60 to 90 minutes of vigorous physical activity daily, and understand that mental exercise is just as important as physical work. A Kelpie that runs five miles but never has to think is still going to be restless. Combine physical exercise with training, puzzle toys, scent work, or any activity that requires the dog to engage its brain. Herding trials and instinct tests provide the most natural outlet, but agility courses, flyball, dock diving, and advanced obedience can all satisfy the Kelpie's need to work in partnership with a handler.

One thing that catches new Kelpie owners off guard is the breed's ability to develop obsessive behaviors when exercise and mental stimulation are insufficient or poorly structured. Shadow chasing, light fixation, tail spinning, and repetitive fence running are all signs that the dog's considerable mental energy has turned inward in unhealthy ways. These behaviors are much easier to prevent than to extinguish once established. The best approach is proactive and structured, building a daily routine that gives the Kelpie clear expectations, regular outlets, and the cooperative partnership its temperament craves. When the relationship works, a trained Kelpie is so responsive and tuned in to its handler that it almost feels like the dog is reading your mind. That connection does not happen by accident. It is built through consistent, thoughtful work that respects the dog's intelligence.

Kelpie Health Concerns

Kelpies are fundamentally hardy dogs shaped by generations of natural selection in some of the harshest working conditions on earth. Dogs that could not hold up physically did not get bred, and that legacy of functional soundness continues to benefit the breed today. That said, there are specific health conditions documented in this breed that prospective owners should understand before committing.

Patellar luxation, where the kneecap slides out of its normal groove, has been reported in some Kelpie lines. While less common than in smaller breeds, it can cause intermittent lameness and may require surgical correction in severe cases. Responsible breeders pursue eye examinations and hip evaluations as baseline screening, with cerebellar abiotrophy DNA testing increasingly standard among breeders who take genetic health seriously. The breed's overall health profile remains strong, with most well-bred Kelpies living active, sound lives well into their teens when provided with proper nutrition, regular veterinary care, and the vigorous exercise their bodies were built to handle.

Common Health Issues

  • Cerebellar abiotrophy - CA, is an autosomal recessive neurological condition causing progressive loss of coordination and balance in puppies, typically appearing between three and sixteen weeks of age with symptoms including head tremors, high-stepping gait, and inability to judge distance.
  • Hip dysplasia involves abnormal development of the hip joint resulting in instability - Pain, and degenerative arthritis over time, diagnosed through OFA or PennHIP radiographic evaluation of breeding stock.
  • Progressive retinal atrophy - PRA, causes gradual deterioration of the retinal photoreceptor cells leading to progressive vision loss and eventual blindness, with DNA tests available for the mutations documented in this breed.
  • Collie eye anomaly - CEA, is an inherited developmental defect of the retina and associated structures that can range from mild with no vision impact to severe with significant visual impairment, detectable through early ophthalmological screening.
  • Patellar luxation occurs when the kneecap displaces from its normal groove - Causing intermittent lameness that ranges from occasional skipping to persistent lameness requiring surgical correction in advanced cases.

Preventive Care & Health Monitoring

  • Cerebellar abiotrophy DNA testing through commercially available marker tests for VMP1 and LINGO3/DOT1L variants allows breeders to identify carriers and avoid producing affected offspring. - Cerebellar abiotrophy DNA testing through commercially available marker tests for VMP1 and LINGO3/DOT1L variants allows breeders to identify carriers and avoid producing affected offspring.
  • OFA or PennHIP hip evaluation radiographs should be performed on all breeding dogs at minimum age of two years to screen for hip dysplasia and inform responsible mating decisions. - OFA or PennHIP hip evaluation radiographs should be performed on all breeding dogs at minimum age of two years to screen for hip dysplasia and inform responsible mating decisions.
  • Annual ophthalmologist examinations by a board-certified veterinary ophthalmologist screen for progressive retinal atrophy - Collie eye anomaly, and other inherited eye conditions.
  • PRA DNA testing identifies dogs carrying the progressive retinal atrophy mutations found in the breed - Enabling informed breeding decisions that reduce the incidence of this blinding condition.
  • Regular veterinary wellness checks combined with maintaining lean body condition through proper nutrition and vigorous daily exercise help protect joint health and support the active lifestyle these dogs require. - Regular veterinary wellness checks combined with maintaining lean body condition through proper nutrition and vigorous daily exercise help protect joint health and support the active lifestyle these dogs require.

Kelpie Grooming & Maintenance

Grooming a Kelpie is about as straightforward as it gets in the dog world. The short, flat, weather-resistant double coat essentially takes care of itself under normal circumstances, requiring only a weekly brushing to remove loose hair and keep the skin healthy. A firm bristle brush or rubber grooming mitt does the job quickly and efficiently. During the spring and fall seasonal coat blows, when the dense undercoat releases in earnest, you will want to increase brushing frequency to several times per week and switch to an undercoat rake or deshedding tool to manage the volume. The shedding during these periods is substantial enough that you will find tufts of downy undercoat on furniture, clothing, and in corners, but it passes within a few weeks.

Bathing should happen only when the dog is genuinely dirty, which for a working Kelpie might be regularly and for a house pet might be every few months. The coat has natural oils that repel dirt and water, and overwashing strips those oils and can lead to dry, irritated skin. When you do bathe, a mild dog shampoo followed by thorough rinsing and air drying is all that is needed. The coat dries quickly on its own thanks to its texture and relatively short length.

Beyond coat care, routine maintenance follows the same schedule as any active breed. Nails should be trimmed or ground every two to three weeks, though Kelpies that run regularly on hard surfaces may wear their nails down naturally. Ears need a weekly check for debris, wax buildup, or signs of infection, particularly if the dog spends time swimming or working in dusty conditions. Dental care is often overlooked but matters enormously for long-term health. Regular brushing with a canine toothpaste several times per week, supplemented by appropriate dental chews, helps prevent the tartar buildup and gum disease that can lead to more serious systemic health problems as the dog ages.

The Kelpie's practical, no-fuss coat is one of the breed's great selling points for people who want an active partner rather than a grooming project. There is no trimming, stripping, clipping, or styling involved. What you see is what you get, and what you get is a coat that was designed by working breeders to protect a dog that spends its life outdoors in sun, rain, dust, and cold. It does exactly what it was engineered to do, and your only real job is to help the shedding process along twice a year and keep the basics covered in between.